As I noted in the text of the “Should I Join the NUPOC Program? / Is NUPOC a good deal?" post, most NUPOC accessions become Submarine Officers. To flesh that statement out with some rough numbers, we have approximately 250 positions during each Fiscal year of which ~150 are Submarine Officer billets, ~40 are Nuclear Surface Warfare Officer billets, and the remaining 60 are split relatively equally between Nuclear Prototype (NPTU) Instructors, Nuclear Power School (NPS) Instructors and Naval Reactors Engineers (NRE). NUPOC supplies right around 1/3 (slightly over that, actually) of all Nuclear officers with NROTC and the Naval Academy supplying the balance.
The large fraction of Submarine officer positions is a consequence of having over 70 submarines, of which nearly twenty have two crews (SSBNs and SSGNs have alternating crews – a later post will discuss an overview of some differences between each of those classes and the “Fast Attack” SSNs which make up the backbone of the Submarine fleet). Thus officers are needed to man ~90 Submarine nuclear reactors. By contrast, we have 11 Aircraft Carriers each of which has two reactors for 22 total. This comparison is not perfect (Aircraft Carrier power plants are larger and require more personnel, for example) but it gives a good idea.
To see the difference between attack and ballistic missile submarines I recommend starting with some videos available on youtube: Ohio Class Ballistic Missile Sub and Virginia Class Attack Sub.
Notes:
1. Other Classes of US Attack Subs: Los Angeles Class & Seawolf Class
2. Ohio Class Subs are being replaced by the Columbia Class beginning in the 2020s
3. Ohio Class SSGNs - Missions are similar to Attack Subs (SSNs), but retain dual-crew structure
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There are a lot of videos and resources available on the internet where you can do your own research (some linked here), but I’ll make an attempt to summarize some of the key differences to give you a starting point from which to proceed. I would point you to the NUPOC Pamphlet linked at the right as a starting point for summaries of all programs as well.
- Career Path: (Listed Sequentially)
- Submarines:
- Nuclear Power School
- Nuclear Power Training Unit (Prototype)
- Submarine Officer Basic Course (Basic Tactical Training)
- Submarine Junior Officer Tour
- (Optional) Shore Duty
- (Optional) Department Head Tour (Nav / Weps / Eng)
- (Optional) Shore Duty
- (Optional) Executive Officer (XO) Tour
- (Optional) Shore Duty
- (Optional) Commanding Officer (CO) Tour
- (Optional) Shore Duty
- Retire? / Variety of Staff Jobs / Squadron Commodore, etc.
Note: For way more detail, click here.
- Surface:
- Non-Nuclear Surface Junior Officer Tour
- Nuclear Power School
- Nuclear Power Training Unit (Prototype)
- Aircraft Carrier Junior Officer Tour
- (Optional) Shore Duty
- Then alternate Sea/Shore positions as indicated for Submarines above, but alternate between Engineering and not
- More details on the career path for Submarines can be found here and more detail for Surface can be found here.
- Advantages to Surface (my perspective):
- You are on the surface (Obvious point, but it is a difference!)
- Sun, fresh air, ability to walk outside
- Surface Ships are bigger
- More / better gym equipment
- More personal space
- More consistent Internet access / communications when at sea.
- Your "division" -- aka the guys who you're in charge of -- will be somewhat larger.
- A function of the much larger ship and nuclear plant on carriers
- Enhanced retention bonuses
- ONLY relevant if you sign a contract after first 5 years
- Advantages to Submarines (my perspective):
- Tighter-knit crew
- Smaller; you know everyone
- Somewhat less rigid Officer/Enlisted separation
- Submarines (in aggregate) have the smartest enlisted sailors in the Navy
- Fewer peers, so more ability to seek out responsibilities
- The flip-side of this is that it will be obvious if you are not pulling your weight, and sometimes responsibilities will seek you out and not the other way around!
- Combines Tactical and Engineering in the same sea tour
- Every Officer on the Submarine (except the "CHOP" aka Supply Officer, but he doesn't count) can and does operate the reactor and drive the boat. Generally you will start in the Engine Room operating the Reactor and gradually spend more time working with tactical systems and ship driving as you gain experience, but there is often some room for flexibility here. As a personal anecdote, I enjoyed driving the boat much more than standing Engineering Officer of the Watch (EOOW) and minding the reactor, but several other Officers on my boat had the opposite sentiment. As such they spent a greater portion of time in the Engineering plant than I did throughout their time on the boat but I spent more time as Officer of the Deck driving the submarine. This wearing of dual hats contrasts with the relatively binary SWO life (first a conventional ship where you are almost exclusively tactically focused followed by a tour on an Aircraft Carrier where you focus exclusively on Engineering).
- Generally better food
- Emeril will not be in the kitchen, and this does vary from Sub to Sub, but generally the food is pretty good given the circumstances.
- "Submarine Pay" - A bonus incentive pay that you receive starting at Power School
- Starts at $230/month and rises incrementally to $510 by your 4 year point
- SUB Pay > SWON Pay by that margin
- See this here (scroll to last page after selecting current year)
- Homeports:
- Submarines
- Bangor and Bremerton, WA
- San Diego, CA
- Pearl Harbor, HI
- Guam
- Groton, CT
- Norfolk, VA
- Kings Bay, GA
- Aircraft Carriers
- Bremerton, WA
- San Diego, CA
- Norfolk, VA
- Japan
Please note that this is not a comprehensive list of differences. With a few exceptions, we require applicants to attend a trip to San Diego to get a better sense of the differences between the Submarine and Surface options, so hopefully if you are serious about applying to the NUPOC program this trip will answer your questions in much more thorough detail.
As always I hope this helps and let me know if anything is unclear or if you would like to see something else addressed.
For the surface advantages, you might want to list the other bonuses they might be entitled to. As a sub guy, I sometimes get tired of hearing my carrier buddies go on about their various retention bonuses.
ReplyDeleteOn further review and consulting some SWON colleagues, the difference is (a) SWOs do not get Sub Pay (obviously) or have anything that replaces it so they're effectively getting paid less until the first 5 years is completed, but (b) if they decide to stay in and sign a contract then they get an additional retention bonus. I'll firm up my understanding once I find the reference and add this to the discussion above.
DeleteMike,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the input. I assume you're a Sub officer? At a high level, the retention bonuses work nearly identically unless I've overlooked something: After initial commitment is completed, Nuke SWOs and Submariners have the option to sign a contract and commence their annual retention bonus, to stay in and not sign which gives them the $12,500 'rent-a-nuke' bonus, or to get out altogether.
If you think I'm missing something shoot me a line, I'll do some research and make updates as appropriate. I had some SWOs in my office look this over and they didn't note any differences, but that doesn't mean there aren't any.
Best,
Brian
Hi Brian,
ReplyDeleteI was wondering how one is split up between subs and carriers. Given the higher number of sub positions, is it more competitive to become a SWO?
Clayton
Hi Clayton,
DeleteYou state your preferences when you interview, but the requirements are the same academically and otherwise. There are fewer surface positions, but also fewer who choose that option so it works out. If you go on the orientation trip you'll get exposed to both before making a choice on preference.
Good luck,
Brian
For submarines, how long are the shifts? How often are you allowed to go home?
ReplyDeleteSubmarine shifts used to be 6-hours but after a series of sleep studies they were shifted to be 8 hours. This standardized us o a 24hr day (vice what was effectively an 18 hour day before --- 3 shifts rotating every 6 hours when at sea). I did both, and like the 8 hour rotations much better.
DeleteAs far as going home vs being at sea, you will have a home port where you have an apartment/house and will be anytime the submarine is not out to sea. On fast-attack submarines (LA and VA classes) you're typically in port between 50-60% of the time. On SSGN and SSBNs there are two crews that rotate, so 1/2 of the time you're effectively not in control of the submarine and just training / qualifying for future missions. The other 1/2 of the time you control the submarine and are operational at sea about ~2/3 of that period. Thus, at a high level, you're in port about 60-70% of the time on those subs. your mileage may vary, though. If you're on a boat that's in shipyard for a major upkeep period you could spend relatively little time at sea.
I know you might have answered this before,but I was just curious as to how relevant is your engineering degree if you choose to do subramines/surface? Is it usually true that being an NRE is the only subset of the program where prospects actually utalize engineering degrees?
ReplyDeleteI guess the answer depends on what you mean. All roles rely heavily on engineering background, but for surface / submarines your role will be very multifaceted --- you will be operating the reactor plant and leading the watch team there, administratively overseeing / approving maintenance and repairs for equipment owned by your division (ex. If you're in charge of the Nuclear mechanics as the "MPA" you'll be responsible for approving their maintenance and repair plans / corrective actions relevant to nuclear system piping, valves, turbines, etc., and you'll obviously need an understanding of engineering concepts to tactically drive the ship and understand weapons systems / sonar / comms systems, etc.
DeleteIf you mean "will I spend a lot of my time designing new components" or similar activities to that, then the answer is no.
Hope this helps and good luck.
That clarifies a lot actually. Thank you. I guess what I was wondering was how relevant is your experiences as submarine/surface was as opposed to NRE if you ever thought of leaving for a civilian sector nuclear engineering position. I'm seriously considering the program, and I just didn't want to limit my options further along the line. Thanks for the quick response!
DeleteYou don't limit yourself at all I don't think. There's a blog called "nukeworker" that would be worth checking out to get more detail, but I know a lot of people who went into Nuclear post-Navy.
DeleteIf I decide to stay in after 5 year contract,between SWO, Sub and Instructor, which will be a better career regarding promotion, higher education at NPS and opportunities when getting out?
ReplyDeleteSubs and SWO are similar. The big difference is between those and instructor. As an instructor you only hold the position for 5 years and then you can either leave the Navy (with great benefits) or laterally transfer to another community. Your promotion schedule will be similar across them.
DeleteHow long is the NUPOC commitment? I'm getting mixed information as to when the 5 year obligation starts and whether it actually is 5 years or 5 years after you go through all your training (which would add up to about 6 years), I need to know how long it is from the moment I get accepted into the NUPOC program and am still in college. Is it 5 years after graduation?
ReplyDeleteAlso, is it even worth applying for NR Eng if my gpa is 3.00 with a Mechanical Engineering Technology (calculus based) degree from a non-elite university? Would love some information on what a difference a navy nuke being on a submarine and a surface ship is. I've read a bunch but I'm more interested in what the actual job entails. Would I be more of a supervisor on a SWO and more technical on the submarine? I'd like to keep my options open after my navy career (if I decide to try to join) and figured I can always become a supervisor/learn management, but won't always have the opportunity to learn some complicated technology.
I know this is super long but please answer whatever you can, I have just found this program and it is very interesting for me
1. Commitment is 5 years from time of commissioning. For Subs / Surface this begins at the end of OCS (so shortly after graduation). For Instructor positions and NRE it begins before ODS so typically almost immediately after graduation. Whether you are in the NUPOC program for 1 month or 30 months prior to graduation has no bearing on the post-commissioning commitment -- the clock starts when you become an officer.
Delete2. Worth applying for NRE with 3.0 GPA? Frankly, no. You can put it on the application but there is zero chance they will bring you to interview for NRE even if you're at MIT / Stanford / CMU,etc.
3. Subs vs SWO comparison -- have you read the summary above on this page? Main difference is: (a) timing of training and (b) bifurcation of job type. For surface, you will do a conventional tour first for about 1.5 years (think tactical employment, ship driving, etc), then complete nuclear training, then go and do an engineering tour on a carrier where you'll be exclusively reactor plant focused (you will have sailors working for you on both, of course). On submarines you begin with the nuclear training, and have one longer tour on a submarine (30-36 months) where your job involves both engineering / Rx plant as well as tactical aspects simultaneously. There are other differences, but that's the crux of it.
I found this on a website: "The Nuclear Propulsion Officer Candidate Program contract is eight years.
DeleteThe Navy expects you to serve as an officer for five years after getting commissioned. However, the total obligation is eight years when you factor in training. Notwithstanding, you may balance service to complete eight years by acting in Ready Reserve status."
Is this false? After the 12 weeks of OCS, it is a 5 year obligation?
Last question, what are the higher education opportunities for a surface warfare officer? Would I be able to obtain a Master's Degree for example (that isn't from an online diploma printer schoool)?
Also, thank you for your response, you have been a lot more comprehensive than I could have ever hoped, I appreciate it!
It's functionally 5 years, but the website is technically right. The contract is for 5 years of active duty and 3 years of "inactive reserve" afterwards should you leave immediately at the 5 year mark. The inactive reserves have never been called up and there is no drill or other requirement except that the Navy will keep your name on a spreadsheet somewhere basically. It's not at all like the "active reserves" which are the "one weekend a month, two weeks a year" reserve positions you might see ads for on TV. It also doesn't pay anything since you're not doing anything.
DeleteRe: Master's degrees, yeah there are a lot of opportunities. If you get out, obviously you can take advantage of the GI Bill + Yellow Ribbon program and do basically whatever you want for either free or nearly so (I got Harvard paid for). While you're in there are a ton of opportunities as well, but some of the programs would incur an additional service obligations (e.g., the Navy will pay you for a couple of years at your normal salary for your current paygrade to go to school, but then you owe them 2-3 years of active service after that too. In those cases the time in school still counts towards your retirement, though). You can also do a grad school program during shore duty or at another time while you're still on active duty. You can use your GI Bill for this, but you lose the housing allowance that normally comes with it (duplicative with the housing allowance you'll already be getting on active duty). If you don't want to use your GI Bill, you could choose to use tuition assistance which is a smaller stipend specific to funding education, but this will typically not cover all of the cost, so you would need to make up the difference out of pocket.
Short answer is yes, lots of opportunities. Friends of mine who were SWOs are now Doctors, Lawyers, Professors, I-bankers, PE-bros, running operating companies, practicing engineers, etc. Depends on what you decide you want to do, but there are options.
I recently spoke with a NUPOC recruiter so I have asked these Q's before but would like to see your experience/understanding. I was told that I was a typically accepted applicant for SWO(N) or Sub Officer; Average state school 3.3 GPA Mechatronics Engineering Bachelor so far, A's and B's in phys/calc, and a 31 ACT (34 in math). Does this check out? Secondly, assuming I leave at 5 years I would like to pursue a career in nuclear engineering; I understand that NR is far more qualifying, but are the swo(n)/sub officers generally qualified to enter this field? I like the idea of steering a vessel, but I would hate to be half qualified for my career of interest.
ReplyDeleteI recently spoke with a NUPOC recruiter so I have asked these Q's before but would like to see your experience/understanding. I was told that I was a typically accepted applicant for SWO(N) or Sub Officer; Average state school 3.3 GPA Mechatronics Engineering Bachelor so far, A's and B's in phys/calc, and a 31 ACT (34 in math). Does this check out? Secondly, assuming I leave at 5 years I would like to pursue a career in nuclear engineering; I understand that NR is far more qualifying, but are the swo(n)/sub officers generally qualified to enter this field? I like the idea of steering a vessel, but I would hate to be half qualified for my career of interest.
ReplyDeleteYeah I think it sounds like you'd have a good shot at getting an interview at least. Re nuclear industry post Navy, yeah there are a ton of Navy vets who've gone that route. Some paths are more well trodden than others, but the short answer is yes that should be a relatively easy pivot.
DeleteHi Brian,
ReplyDeleteFirst I want to apologize if this posts twice... I couldn’t see my first comment show up so I’m trying again.
I read a previous reply about how long a person should expect to spend at sea but I’m still not sure I’m clear on that commitment. I have pets and am concerned about being gone for the majority of my time. Do you know of people in NUPOC who have pets? Would the NR Engineer be a better route to try for than subs if this is the case? I know this seems like an inconsequential thing but is something I’m truly worried about.
Thanks in advance!
Typically you could expect to be gone something like 35 to 40 percent of the time while attached to a submarine /surface ship. People do have pets, but when at sea you would obviously need someone else to watch them -- roommates, friends, family, significant others, etc... its definitely doable, but something you'd want to think about to work out logistics.
DeleteI have just finished the Admiral interview this morning, and I am accepted in the NUPOC as SWO. Where can I find all the benefits and bonus as being a SWO(N)? I only know about $10,000 and then when I finish the power shcool, I will get pay more, but now sure how much.
ReplyDeleteSorry for the delayed response, but posting so others can see. There are two components of the bonus. Most is paid after passing the interviews (though it was higher than $10k 6 years ago... unsure if it's changed, but I don't think you have the right figure). You get an additional $2k when you complete training (which is added to your normal pay during one of the pay periods).
Delete